This was a special in person dialogue between the cognitive scientist John Vervaeke and the symbolism expert Jonathan Pageau.

They reflect on what each finds valuable about each other’s work, the nature of the conversation that they have been part of, good and bad criticism, the nature of symbolism and much more.

It was recorded in Toronto during the making of the forthcoming Rebel Wisdom documentary about John Vervaeke’s thought. Some behind the scenes pictures, and a second part of this film is available for subscribers on the Rebel Wisdom Substack: LINK HERE

John Vervaeke’s YouTube channel is here:

Jonathan Pageau’s work can be found here:

Timecodes for the conversation:

0:00 – What does Jonathan appreciate about John’s work?

3:55 – What does John appreciate about Jonathan’s work?

9:35 – What is the nature of the wider conversation you are both part of?

16:10 – The nature of criticism & “civility porn”

24:09 – The need to go beyond the political layer of analysis

26:19 – Paranoia fuelled by the ‘Hermeneutics of Suspicion’

35:16 – Dialogue, Curiosity & Wonder

48:25 – How Symbolism breaks the frame and rewires our thinking

54:36 – A parable is to a narrative what a koan is to a question

57:35 – “I want to help people fall in love with Being again”

01:05:23 – The moral of Socrates and Alcibiades

01:12:56 – Patterns of Being; love, faith & beauty

01:21:32 – Freedom cannot be absolute